In India, religious traditions are deeply intertwined with daily life: PM
Fasting accelerates the thinking process, providing fresh perspectives and encouraging out-of-the-box thinking: PMChallenges are part of life but should not define one's purpose: PMWhile many freedom fighters made lasting impacts, it was Mahatma Gandhi who awakened the nation by leading a mass movement rooted in truth: PMGandhiji’s ability to involve every individual in the freedom struggle, from sweepers to teachers to weavers to caregivers was remarkable: PMWhen I shake hands with a world leader, it’s not Modi, but 140 crore Indians doing so: PMThe world listens to India when we speak of peace, this is backed by our strong cultural and historical background: PMSports energizes the world by bringing people together across nations and connecting them at a deeper level: PMCooperation between India and China is essential for global stability and prosperity: PMArtificial Intelligence development is fundamentally a collaborative effort, no nation can develop it entirely on its own: PMAI can create many things based on human imagination, but no technology can ever replace the boundless creativity and imagination of the human mind: PMI will never fall behind in hard work for my country, never act with bad intentions and never do anything for personal gain: PMPrime Minister Narendra Modi: My strength does not lie in being Modi; it comes from 140 crore Indians, from our nation's rich cultural and historical legacy spanning thousands of years. That is my true strength. Wherever I go, I do not go as Modi—I carry with me the thousands of years old great traditions of our civilization, from the Vedas to Vivekananda. I represent 140 crore people, their dreams, and their aspirations. That is why, when I shake hands with any world leader, it is not just Modi’s hand—it is the collective hand of 140 crore Indians. My strength is not that of Modi; it is the strength of Bharat itself. Whenever we speak of peace, the world listens, for this is the land of Buddha, the land of Mahatma Gandhi. We are not proponents of conflict; we advocate harmony. We seek neither conflict with nature nor strife between nations—we are a people who believe in cooperation. And if we can contribute in any way to fostering peace, we have always endeavoured to do so. My life emerged from extreme poverty, yet we never felt burdened by it. If someone who has worn shoes all their life suddenly finds themselves without them, they might struggle. But for those who have never worn shoes, there is no sense of deprivation—we simply lived our lives as they were.
When I became Prime Minister, I took a significant step by inviting Pakistan to my swearing-in ceremony, hoping for a fresh start. However, every attempt at goodwill was met with disappointment. We continue to hope that wisdom will prevail, leading them towards peace and prosperity. I believe that the people there are also yearning for a better future. As for criticism—how do I handle it? If I were to sum it up in one sentence, I welcome it. I firmly believe that criticism is the very soul of democracy. To all the young people out there, no matter how dark the night may seem in life, remember—it is just a night, and morning will surely come.
Lex Fridman: You are about to hear my conversation with Narendra Modi, the Prime Minister of India. This discussion is one of the most profound I have ever had—it left an indelible impact on me, and I want to share my thoughts on it. If you prefer, you can skip ahead to listen to our conversation directly.
Narendra Modi’s life story is nothing short of extraordinary. Rising from poverty, he became the leader of the world’s largest democracy, guiding a nation of 140 crore people. He has not just been elected once, but three times, each with a decisive mandate. As a leader, he has fought many battles to keep India united—a country with diverse cultures, communities, and a complex history of religious, social, and political challenges. He is known for making bold, and at times, controversial decisions. This is why millions admire him, while many also critique him. In our conversation, we explored these aspects in depth. He commands respect from global leaders and is regarded as a soldier of peace and a friend, even by leaders of nations currently embroiled in conflict—be it US-China, Ukraine-Russia, Israel-Palestine or the Middle-east. He is recognised worldwide. At this moment in history, I have come to realise that humanity stands at a delicate crossroads. The possibility of wars escalating looms over us. Conflicts could spread beyond nations and engulf the world. The growing tensions among nuclear-armed nations, coupled with rapid technological advancements—from artificial intelligence to nuclear fusion—are set to transform society and geopolitics in ways we can scarcely predict. These changes could trigger political and cultural upheaval. Now, more than ever, we need great leaders—leaders who can unite rather than divide, who prioritise peace while safeguarding their own nations, yet also consider the well-being of humanity as a whole. This is why my conversation with Prime Minister Modi stands out as one of the most significant I have had. Some aspects of our discussion might make it seem as though I am influenced by power. That is not the case—nor has it ever been, nor will it ever be. I do not idolise anyone, least of all those in power. I do not believe in the allure of power, money, or fame, for they can corrupt the heart, mind, and soul.
Whether in front of the camera or behind it, my goal is always to understand the human mind—both its virtues and its flaws. I want to know and comprehend everything, whether good or bad. And when I reflect deeply, I realise that we are all the same. Every one of us carries both light and darkness within. We all have our own struggles and hopes, whether we are world leaders, Indian labourers, or farmers & workers in America. Speaking of which, I plan to engage with many American labourers and farmers, either off-camera or on record, as I continue my travels across the world and the United States. My reflections on Narendra Modi are not merely about his leadership but also his personality. The hours I spent with him, both in front of and away from the camera, were filled with profound discussions. There was warmth, empathy, humour, and a sense of inner and outer peace. Our conversations were not bound by time. I have heard that he meets everyone with the same compassion and understanding, regardless of their background. This consistency in his interactions made the experience truly remarkable—one that I will never forget.
By the way, I must mention one more thing—you can read the subtitles of this conversation in English, Hindi, and several other languages. Additionally, you can listen to this video in these languages. You also have the option to hear it in a bilingual format, where I will be speaking in English, while Prime Minister Modi will be speaking in Hindi. If you prefer, you can enable subtitles in your chosen language. On YouTube, you can change the audio language by clicking on the "Settings" icon. Then, select "Audio Track" and choose your preferred language to listen to our conversation. To hear the entire discussion in English, select "English"; for Hindi, select "Hindi". If you wish to experience the conversation in its original format—where Prime Minister Modi speaks in Hindi and I speak in English—please choose the audio track labelled "Hindi (Latin)". You have the flexibility to listen to this conversation in a single language or in both Hindi and English, with subtitles available in your preferred language. The default language of the video is English. I would like to extend my gratitude to 'Eleven Labs' and the incredible team of translators for making this possible.
We have made every effort to ensure that Prime Minister Modi's voice in English, generated through AI cloning, sounds as authentic as possible. I firmly believe that language should never create barriers between us. I will continue striving to make these conversations accessible to people worldwide, in every language. Once again, I want to express my heartfelt gratitude to all of you. This has been an incredible journey for me, and I feel deeply honoured to have your constant support. I truly appreciate each and every one of you. You are watching the "Lex Fridman Podcast". So, my friends, the moment has arrived—you are about to listen to my conversation with the Prime Minister of India, Narendra Modi.
Lex Fridman: I would like to share something with you—I have been fasting. It has been nearly 45 hours, or two days, during which I have consumed only water and no food. I have undertaken this fast out of respect and as a form of preparation for this conversation, so that we can engage on a deeper, more spiritual level. I have heard that you also fast regularly. Could you share with me the significance of fasting in your life and the state of your mind while fasting?
Prime Minister: First and foremost, I am truly surprised to learn that you have observed a fast, and that too in a manner that seems to honour this conversation. I sincerely appreciate your gesture. In Bharat, religious traditions are not merely rituals but a way of life. Our Supreme Court has beautifully described Hinduism as not just a system of worship but a complete philosophy of living. Our scriptures explore ways to elevate the body, mind, intellect, soul, and humanity to higher realms, and fasting is one of the many disciplines that contribute to this process. However, fasting is not the sole aspect of this tradition. Culturally and philosophically, fasting plays a significant role in shaping both internal and external discipline. If I were to explain it in simple terms for those unfamiliar with India, I would say that fasting helps regulate one’s life. You must have noticed, after fasting on only water for two days, that your senses—especially those of smell, touch, and taste—have become extraordinarily sharp. You might now even detect the faint scent of water, something you never noticed before. If someone walks past you carrying tea or coffee, you would instantly recognise the aroma. Similarly, if you look at a small flower, you will perceive it with a newfound clarity.
In essence, when you fast, all your senses suddenly become highly active, and their ability to absorb and respond to stimuli increases significantly. This is something I have personally experienced. Additionally, I have found that fasting sharpens the impact of my thoughts, giving them a freshness and an out-of-the-box perspective. I am not sure whether others share the same experience of fasting, but this has been my personal journey.
Many people assume that fasting simply means abstaining from food—not eating. However, this is a purely physical action. If someone is unable to eat due to external circumstances and nothing enters their stomach, that cannot truly be considered fasting. Fasting is a scientific process. For instance, I have been fasting for a long time, and before I begin, I undergo several preparatory steps. Five to seven days before my fast, I practise Ayurvedic routines, yoga, and other traditional methods to cleanse my body internally. Then, before officially starting the fast, I drink as much water as possible to ensure that my body is fully hydrated and prepared for detoxification. For me, fasting is an act of devotion; it is a discipline. No matter how many external activities I engage in during a fast, I remain deeply immersed in my inner self. It is a profound experience, a wonderful feeling. My practice of fasting was not influenced by books, sermons, or family traditions—it stemmed from my own experience. When I was in school, there was a nationwide movement for cow protection inspired by Mahatma Gandhi. At the time, the government had not introduced any legal measures, and as part of the movement, people across the country observed a day-long fast in public places. I was just a child, probably fresh out of primary school, but I felt compelled to participate. That was my first experience of fasting. Despite my young age, I neither felt hungry nor had any desire to eat. Instead, I experienced a newfound awareness and energy. It was then that I realised fasting is not merely about abstaining from food; it is a deeper, scientific process. Over time, I conducted numerous experiments to refine my body and mind, shaping them through fasting. After undergoing such an extensive journey with fasting, I have observed that my level of activity never declines. In fact, at times, it feels as though I work even more during a fast. Another remarkable observation is that when I need to articulate my thoughts during fasting, I am often astonished at how effortlessly ideas flow. I do not know where these thoughts originate, but the experience is truly extraordinary.
Lex Fridman: So, even while fasting, you continue meeting world leaders, carrying out your duties as Prime Minister, and fulfilling your responsibilities as a global statesman. And you sometimes even fast for nine days at a stretch.
Prime Minister: Indeed, and this practice has a long history. Perhaps the listeners might find it overwhelming, but I will share it nonetheless.
In India, we have a tradition called 'Chaturmas', which spans the monsoon season. It is understood that digestion power weakens during this period, so it is customary to eat only once a day for four months. For me, this practice begins around mid-June and continues until after Diwali, typically until November. Then, we have 'Navratri', a nine-day festival in September or October dedicated to the worship of Goddess Durga. During this period, I consume only hot water. Incidentally, drinking hot water has always been a habit of mine due to my early life experiences and I stuck with this habit. Another 'Navratri' occurs in March or April, known as 'Chaitra Navratri'. This year, it is likely to begin on 31st March. During this fast, I consume only one type of fruit per day. For example, if I choose papaya, I will eat only papaya once a day for the entire nine-day period.
Over the years, these fasting traditions have become an integral part of my life. In fact, I have been following such practices for over 50–55 years.
Lex Fridman: Has it ever happened that you were fasting while meeting some of the world's great leaders? How did they react? Were they surprised that you could go without food? And I must say, you were absolutely right. After fasting for two days, I have noticed a heightened awareness and an enhanced ability to perceive things. It has been a profound experience. Do you recall any particular incident where you fasted in the presence of a world leader?
Prime Minister: Well, I generally don’t let most people know about it. Fasting is a deeply personal matter for me, and I have never sought publicity for it. It was only after I became Chief Minister and later Prime Minister that people started becoming aware of it. Otherwise, it has always remained a private aspect of my life. Now that it is known, I do share my experiences when asked, in the hope that they may be useful to someone. I do not possess any personal wealth—only my experiences, which might benefit others. My entire life is dedicated to the people. For instance, after I became Prime Minister, I had a bilateral meeting with President Obama at the White House. A formal dinner had been arranged, and during the discussions between our respective teams, it was mentioned that while dinner was planned, the Prime Minister would not be eating. This caused some concern—how could they host the Prime Minister of a large nation like India without offering him a meal? When we sat down, they brought me a glass of hot water. With a lighthearted remark, I turned to President Obama and said, "Look, my dinner has arrived!" and placed the glass in front of him. Later, when I visited again, he remembered. He said, "Last time you were fasting, but this time you told me you had lunch. So, no fasting this time—you must eat double!"
Lex Fridman: Let’s talk about your childhood. You come from a humble background and later rose to become the Prime Minister of the world's largest democracy. Your journey is an inspiration to many. Your family was not financially well-off, and you spent your early years living in a modest, single-room house made of mud, where your entire family resided. Could you share some memories from your childhood? How did growing up with limited resources shape your personality?
Prime Minister: I was born in Gujarat, in a small town called Vadnagar, located in Mehsana district in North Gujarat. Vadnagar is a place of great historical significance, and it is where I was born and educated. Reflecting on the world today, I realise that the environment in which I grew up was quite unique—perhaps even rare. When I was in school, there was a gentleman in our village who would often encourage us children by saying, “If you ever come across a carved stone, an inscribed rock, or any ancient artefact, bring it to this corner of the school.” His words sparked my curiosity, and as I began to understand more, I realised that my village had a very rich and ancient history. At school, discussions about our village’s heritage further deepened my interest. Later, I read in a newspaper about a Chinese film that mentioned the famous Chinese philosopher and traveller, Hiuen Tsang. I learned that he had spent a considerable amount of time in my village centuries ago, as Vadnagar was once a significant centre for Buddhist learning. In fact, historical records suggest that it was a thriving Buddhist educational hub as early as the 1400s. Over time, I discovered more fascinating aspects of Vadnagar’s history—a twelfth-century victory monument, a seventeenth-century temple, and the legacy of Taana and Riri, two sisters from the sixteenth century who were highly skilled in music. As these historical elements came to light, my fascination grew. When I became Chief Minister, I initiated large-scale excavation projects to uncover the historical significance of Vadnagar. Through this work, we found evidence that, at one time, thousands of Buddhist monks studied there, and the influences of Buddhism, Jainism, and Hinduism were all deeply interwoven. In Vadnagar, history was not merely confined to books—every stone, every wall seemed to narrate its own story. These excavations revealed remarkable findings that hold great importance for history. So far, evidence suggests that Vadnagar has been continuously inhabited for 2,800 years—an unbroken and enduring human settlement with a well-documented history of growth and development spanning nearly three millennia. Today, an international-level museum has been established there, offering a significant research space, particularly for archaeology students. For me, my birthplace holds a special significance. And by a stroke of divine arrangement, perhaps, my karmabhoomi became Kashi. Kashi—also known as Banaras or Varanasi—is another ancient city that has remained continuously inhabited for hundreds of years.
It seems extraordinary that someone like me, born in Vadnagar, would later find his life's work in Kashi, living at the feet of Maa Ganga. In my early years, I lived with my parents, siblings, grandparents, uncles, and aunts. The house we grew up in was a modest dwelling—small, with no windows, only a single door. We were born and raised there. When people discuss poverty, it is often framed in relative terms. Today, in public life, many come from different backgrounds, but my childhood was spent in extreme poverty. However, I never felt burdened by it. You see, if someone is used to wearing shoes and suddenly has none, they will feel the absence of them. But if one has never worn shoes, they will never know what they are missing. Having never owned shoes in my childhood, I did not feel deprived of them. My life was simply what it was, without comparisons. My mother worked incredibly hard, and so did my father. He had a unique daily routine—waking up very early, around 4:00 or 4:30 in the morning. He would walk long distances, visit several temples, and then head to his small shop. He wore handmade leather shoes, crafted by local villagers, which made a distinct tuk, tuk, tuk sound as he walked. People in the village used to say they would adjust their watches according to Damodar Bhai’s arrival, as he was so punctual and disciplined. He worked tirelessly, often late into the night. Meanwhile, my mother ensured that despite our hardships, we never felt deprived. She managed everything so that our home life remained as smooth as possible.Yet, despite these circumstances of poverty, they never affected our minds.
I vividly remember that wearing shoes to school was never even a consideration. One day, while I was on my way to school, my uncle happened to see me. He was surprised and asked, "Hey! You go to school like this, without shoes?" Without hesitation, he bought me a pair of canvas shoes and made me wear them. At that time, those shoes would have cost around 10–12 rupees. Since they were made of canvas, they would stain easily, and they happened to be white. To keep them looking clean, I developed a habit. After school, I would stay behind for a while, collecting the leftover pieces of chalk discarded by the teachers. I would go from classroom to classroom, gathering bits of chalk, then take them home, soak them, and use them to polish my canvas shoes. This would make them gleam, and to me, that felt like an immense luxury, a treasure. I don't know why, but from childhood, our mother was extremely conscious about cleanliness. Perhaps that discipline became ingrained in us as well. I am not sure how I developed the habit of always dressing neatly, but it was something I followed from a very young age. Whatever I wore, I made sure to wear it properly. We had no means of getting our clothes ironed, so I found my own way. I would heat water in a copper pot, hold it with tongs, and use it as an iron before heading to school. I genuinely enjoyed this life. We were never raised with the mindset of judging others based on their financial status. We never thought about whether someone was poor or how they lived their lives. Instead, we were taught to be content with whatever we had, to keep working hard, and never to dwell on these matters with sorrow. Whether one calls it good fortune or bad luck, my journey in politics eventually brought these aspects of my life into the public eye. When I was sworn in as Chief Minister, television reporters reached my village. They began speaking to my childhood friends and capturing footage of my home. It was only then that people truly learned about my background and where I had come from. Before that, very few people knew much about me. This is how my life has unfolded. My mother had a natural inclination for service. She possessed knowledge of traditional remedies and would often treat children in the village. Parents would bring their children to her for treatment early in the morning, before sunrise—sometimes as early as five o’clock. The children would often cry, and because of this, we too had to wake up early. She would tend to the children with care, embodying a spirit of selfless service. Looking back, I believe that witnessing this instilled in me a deep sense of compassion for society and a desire to do good for others. Whatever I have become today is a result of the environment I grew up in—the values instilled in me by my mother and father, and the guidance of my teachers. My life has been shaped by these influences.
Lex Fridman: Many young people listening to this conversation are truly inspired by your story—your journey from humble beginnings to leading the world’s largest democracy. What advice would you give to young individuals who are struggling, feeling lost, and trying to find their way in life?
Prime Minister: I would like to tell all young people that no matter how dark the night may seem in life, it remains just a night—morning is certain to follow. That is why patience and self-confidence are essential. Circumstances may be challenging, but I am not here because of circumstances alone. One must have the conviction that God has sent them into this world for a purpose. And remember, you are never alone—the one who has sent you is always with you. This unwavering faith is crucial. Difficulties exist to test us; they are not meant to break us but to strengthen us. Hardships should not lead to despair—they are meant to build resilience. I have always seen every crisis, every challenge, as an opportunity. This is what I would like to convey to young people. Secondly, patience is essential—there are no shortcuts in life. At our railway station, there is a sign warning people against crossing the tracks instead of using the bridge. It says, "Shortcut will cut you short." This is true for life as well. I would also like to remind young people: "Shortcut will cut you short." There are no shortcuts in life. Patience and perseverance are essential. Whatever responsibility we are entrusted with, we must dedicate ourselves to it wholeheartedly. We should embrace it with joy and take pride in our work. I believe that if a person adopts this approach to life, everything else falls into place. Success and prosperity have their own splendour, but one must not become complacent. If someone simply remains idle, wrapped in comfort, they will ultimately stagnate. No matter the circumstances, one must always strive to contribute. If I find myself in a position of influence, I should use it to give back to society to the best of my ability. If I am not in such a position, there is still meaningful work to be done. Regardless of one's status or situation, there is always room for growth and service, and that is the approach I would encourage.
Another important point is that learning should never stop. Some people become complacent, thinking they know enough. But the student within us should never die; we must always remain eager to learn. For example, my mother tongue is Gujarati, and when I was younger, I had little knowledge of Hindi. I did not know what eloquence was or how to speak effectively. However, I used to sit with my father at the tea stall, where I had the chance to meet people from all walks of life. Even as a child, I learned from each of these encounters—their mannerisms, their way of speaking, their perspectives. I absorbed everything. I told myself that even if I wasn’t in a position of influence at the time, I should prepare myself for the future. Why shouldn’t I learn? Why shouldn’t I improve myself? I firmly believe that the desire to learn should always remain alive within us. Furthermore, I have noticed that many people are fixated on achieving certain goals or becoming something specific. When they fail to reach their desired outcome, they become disheartened. That is why I always advise my friends: "Instead of dreaming of getting or becoming something, dream of doing something."
When you dream of doing, and you set a goal of ten but reach eight, you will still feel a sense of achievement. You will continue striving for ten without being discouraged. However, if your dream is solely about becoming something, and that does not materialise, even what you have achieved will start to feel burdensome. That is why you should focus on action rather than just aspiration.
Finally, in life, instead of worrying about what you have or have not received, ask yourself, "What can I give?" True contentment is born from a spirit of giving.
Lex Fridman: I would like to share something with you. Since childhood, it was my dream to do exactly what I am doing now. So, this is a very special moment for me. Another fascinating part of your life is when, at the age of 17, you left home and wandered in the Himalayas for two years. You were in search of your purpose, truth, and God. Very few people know about this period of your life. You had no home, no possessions—your life was entirely ascetic. You had no roof over your head. Would you like to share some spiritual moments, practices, or experiences from that time?
Prime Minister: I see you have done your research. To be honest, I don’t speak much about this topic, but I can certainly share a few things. I grew up in a small place, in a community-oriented environment. Living among people was a way of life. Our village had a library, and I would often go there to read books. Those books instilled in me a deep desire for self-discipline. I would read about Swami Vivekananda, Chhatrapati Shivaji Maharaj—how they shaped their lives, how they transformed themselves. Inspired by them, I experimented with my own life. My experiments were often physical in nature. For example, although our region did not experience extreme cold, the nights in December could be quite chilly. I would challenge myself—some nights, I would sleep outside in the open without any covering, just to see how my body would endure the cold. I conducted such experiments at a very young age. Apart from reading, my daily activities included going to the village pond, washing my family’s clothes, and swimming. Swimming became a key part of my physical routine. So all these things were connected to my life. As I delved deeper into Swami Vivekananda’s works, I felt an even stronger attraction towards his teachings. One story about Vivekananda left a profound impact on me.
His mother was unwell, so he took her to Ramakrishna Paramahamsa. At that time, Vivekananda was deeply intellectual and would often debate and argue, questioning everything. He used to think, "If only I had money, how well could I serve my mother today?" and felt helpless about his circumstances. Seeing this, Ramakrishna Dev said to him, "Why are you troubling me? Go to Maa Kali. She is there—ask her for whatever you need." So, Vivekananda went to the temple and sat in front of the idol of Maa Kali, meditating for hours. When he returned, Ramakrishna Dev asked, "Did you ask Maa for what you needed?" Vivekananda replied, "No, I did not." Ramakrishna Dev then told him, "Go again tomorrow—Maa will grant your wish." The next day, and again on the third day, Vivekananda returned to the temple. But each time, he found himself so immersed in Maa Kali’s presence that he could not ask for anything. His mother was ill, he needed help, yet he remained lost in devotion, returning empty-handed. When he confessed this to Ramakrishna Dev, it ignited a deep realisation within him. The experience transformed his perspective—he understood that seeking worldly gains would only fuel an endless hunger, whereas true fulfilment lay in giving. It was from this realisation that the spirit of selfless service took root in his life. He came to believe in the unity of Shiva and the soul, in the idea that serving living beings was the true way to serve the divine. This story left a profound impact on me. Perhaps, in some way, it influenced my own thinking—instilling in me the belief that true satisfaction comes not from receiving, but from giving. I recall another childhood memory. Near our locality, there was a Mahadev temple where a saint had come to meditate. I was drawn to him, fascinated by his spiritual presence. Since I had read about Swami Vivekananda but had never seen such people in real life, I was eager to observe and learn. During Navratri, this saint undertook a unique fast—he grew jowar (sorghum) on his hand and remained in meditation for nine or ten days without eating or drinking. At the same time, a wedding was taking place in my maternal uncle’s family, and my entire family was preparing to leave for the celebrations. For any child, visiting their maternal uncle’s house was a source of great excitement, but I told my family, "No, I will not go. I will stay here and serve Swami Ji. Since he cannot eat or drink, I will take care of him." And so, instead of attending the wedding, I remained with the saint, looking after him. Even as a child, I found myself naturally inclined towards such experiences. At the same time, I was also inspired by those who served the country. In our village, some men served in the army. Whenever they returned home on leave, dressed in their uniforms, I would run after them all day, fascinated by their commitment to the nation. I did not have a clear direction for my life, nor did I possess a roadmap, but I always had an intense desire to do something meaningful. I was eager to explore life, to understand it. This curiosity led me on a journey of discovery. In my quest, I came into contact with the Ramakrishna Mission, where the saints showered me with love and blessings. I developed a close bond with Swami Atmasthanand Ji, who lived for almost a hundred years. Later in life, when I became Prime Minister, I deeply wished for him to visit my residence, but his responsibilities prevented him from doing so. However, he often visited me when I was Chief Minister, offering his guidance and blessings. He once asked me, "Why have you come here? What is your priority—your own well-being or the service of society? Remember what Vivekananda taught: your purpose is to serve."
In that moment, I felt a sense of disappointment because I only got to listen to sermons, I did not get any help. With that realisation, my journey continued. I spent time in the Himalayas, living a simple life, experiencing different places, meeting sages and ascetics, and learning from their wisdom. However, my mind remained restless. Perhaps it was my youth—filled with curiosity, a yearning to know and understand. Life in the mountains was an entirely new experience—the cold weather, the solitude, the towering snow-covered peaks. Yet, these experiences played a crucial role in shaping me. They strengthened my inner resolve. I disciplined myself—waking up in the Brahma Muhurta, meditating, bathing in freezing waters, serving people. I naturally gravitated towards helping elderly saints and ascetics. During one particular period, a natural calamity struck the region, and I devoted myself to assisting the villagers. Throughout my wandering years, I never stayed in one place for long. I travelled from one place to another, learning, observing, and serving. That was my life.
Lex Fridman: For those who may not be aware, you spent a significant amount of time with Swami Atmasthananda at the Ramakrishna Mission Ashram. As you just mentioned, he guided you towards a life of service. One possible path for you could have been to take sannyas, renouncing everything to become a sannyasi. In that case, today you might have been here either as Sannyasi Narendra Modi or as the Prime Minister. He played a crucial role in helping you decide to dedicate your life to service at every level.
Prime Minister: From an external perspective, people might label someone as a leader, a Prime Minister, or a Chief Minister. However, my inner life has remained a continuum. The Modi who, as a child, would assist his mother in treating children, the Modi who cared for those children back then, the Modi who wandered through the Himalayas, and the Modi who stands here today—all are part of the same journey. Every moment of my life has been lived for others. It is this continuity that creates a stark contrast between a sadhu and a leader in the eyes of the world. The difference lies in attire, lifestyle, daily language, and responsibilities. But internally, I carry out my duties with the same sense of detachment.
Lex Fridman: Another significant aspect of your life is your unwavering commitment to putting India first. From the age of eight, you were associated with the RSS, an organisation that supports the concept of Hindu nationalism. Could you share your experiences with the RSS and explain how it influenced you? How has it shaped your beliefs and political outlook?
Prime Minister: As a child, I was always eager to be engaged in various activities. I vividly remember a man, though I do not recall his full name— probably Makosi Soni. He was from Seva Dal. He used to carry a drum (dafli) and sing patriotic songs with an exceptional voice. He would visit our village, organising performances in different locations. I would follow him around, utterly captivated, listening to his songs throughout the night. I found immense joy in it, though at the time, I did not fully understand why. Similarly, there was an RSS branch near my home, where we played sports and sang patriotic songs. I found these gatherings deeply moving and engaging, and that is how I became involved with the Sangh. The RSS instilled in me a fundamental principle: whatever one does should be done with the thought of serving the nation. Whether studying, exercising, or engaging in any activity, it should be undertaken with the intent of contributing to the country. This philosophy is ingrained in the Sangh’s teachings. The RSS is an enormous organisation, now nearing its 100th year, and I am not aware of any voluntary organisation of its scale anywhere in the world. It has crores of members, yet it is not easy to comprehend its essence fully. One must try to understand its work and the purpose it upholds, which provides a strong sense of direction. At its core, the Sangh believes that the nation is paramount and that public service is akin to serving God—an idea echoed since the Vedic era, reiterated by our sages, and reinforced by Swami Vivekananda. A swayamsevak (volunteer) is taught that the essence of the RSS is not merely attending a one-hour sermon and wearing a uniform. True swayamseva (selfless service) lies in contributing to society. Inspired by this philosophy, numerous initiatives have emerged. For instance, some swayamsevaks established Seva Bharti, which operates in underprivileged settlements—known as Seva Bastis—helping slum dwellers without government aid. Through societal support, volunteers dedicate their time to educating children, addressing healthcare needs, inculcating values, and conducting cleanliness drives. Currently, Seva Bharti runs approximately 1.25 lakh service projects—a staggering number. Similarly, former swayamsevaks established Vanvasi Kalyan Ashram, serving tribal communities living in the forests, and run over 70,000 Ekal Vidyalayas (One Teacher, One School initiatives) to educate tribal children. Even in the United States, supporters donate $10 or $15 to sustain these schools, sometimes opting to forgo a single Coca-Cola to donate the equivalent amount. To revolutionise education, Vidya Bharati was founded. It currently operates approximately 25,000 schools, providing education to over 30 lakh students at a time. I believe that crores of students have benefited from affordable education that not only imparts academic knowledge but also instils cultural values, practical skills, and a sense of responsibility towards society. The RSS has also made significant contributions in various sectors, including women’s welfare, youth development, and labour rights. The Bharatiya Mazdoor Sangh, for instance, is one of the largest labour unions in the world, with around 55,000 affiliated unions and crores of members. Historically, labour movements have been influenced by leftist ideologies, often advocating the slogan: "Workers of the world, unite." However, the RSS-influenced labour organisations have redefined this ideology, saying instead: "Workers, unite the world." This seemingly minor shift in phrasing carries profound ideological implications, reflecting a philosophy of unity and harmony rather than conflict. When individuals shaped by the RSS philosophy engage in their respective fields, they drive such transformative initiatives. Over the past century, the Rashtriya Swayamsevak Sangh has worked with a spirit of dedication and selflessness, avoiding the limelight while making immense contributions to society. I consider it my great fortune to have imbibed values from such a noble organization, which gave my life a sense of purpose. Later, I had the privilege of spending time with saints, where I experienced a spiritual awakening. My association with figures like Swami Atmasthananda was transformative—he guided me at every step, just as the Ramakrishna Mission and the teachings of Swami Vivekananda did. The service-oriented philosophy of the Sangh, combined with these spiritual influences, has played a profound role in shaping me.
Lex Fridman: The RSS has not only shaped individuals but has also contributed to defining the idea of Bharat. What, in your view, is the fundamental concept that unites Bharat? What is the essence of Bharat as a nation, given its vast diversity of societies, communities, and cultures?
Prime Minister: Look, Bharat is a unified nation with a one cultural identity, a civilisation that spans thousands of years. Consider the vastness of Bharat—home to more than a hundred languages and thousands of dialects. It is often said that if you travel just twenty miles within the country, the language, customs, cuisine, and even attire change. From South to North India, diversity is evident everywhere. However, if you delve deeper, you will find a common thread running through it all. As I often say, the name of Lord Ram resonates across the country—you will hear his name on everyone's lips.
If you travel from Tamil Nadu to Jammu and Kashmir, you will inevitably come across people whose names incorporate ‘Ram’ in some form. In Gujarat, someone might be called ‘Ram Bhai’; in Tamil Nadu, ‘Ramachandran’; and in Maharashtra, ‘Rambhau’. This cultural continuity binds Bharat together. Take, for example, the act of bathing in our country. People typically bathe using water from a bucket, yet they invoke the names of rivers from every corner of India. The prayer Gange cha Yamune chaiva Godavari Saraswati, Narmada Sindhu Kaveri jalesmin sannidhim kuru signifies that one is spiritually bathing in the waters of all these rivers, encompassing the entire nation. We have a deep-rooted tradition of sankalp—a solemn vow or resolution. Every important task, whether a religious ceremony or a significant event, begins with a sankalp. A vast history could be written on the significance of sankalp, particularly in how data was collected in ancient Bharat and how our scriptures were structured. The uniqueness of our tradition is evident in how, during a vow, a prayer, or even a wedding, we begin by acknowledging the universe itself. We reference Jambudweep, then Bharatkhanda, then Aryavarta, before finally mentioning the village and the family deity.
This tradition remains alive across Bharat even today. Unfortunately, they started looking at what the Western and other global models were, based on the government system. Bharat has seen various forms of governance throughout its history—many fragmented, some appearing in scattered forms, with countless kings and emperors. But what has held Bharat together is its cultural unity. The tradition of pilgrimage, for example, is a significant unifying force. Adi Shankaracharya established the four dhams, reinforcing the idea of a connected spiritual nation. Even today, lakhs of people embark on pilgrimages from one part of the country to another.
For instance, people travel to Kashi, while others carry sacred water from Rameshwaram to Kashi and vice versa. These cultural and spiritual practices bind the country together in a way that is difficult to comprehend fully. If one studies our Panchang (Hindu almanac), they will find an astonishingly rich and interconnected cultural heritage across the land.
Lex Fridman: Looking at the history of modern India, Mahatma Gandhi and you stand as two of the most significant figures, certainly the most important people in India's history. What do you admire most about Mahatma Gandhi?
Prime Minister: As you know, I was born in Gujarat, and my mother tongue is Gujarati. Mahatma Gandhi was also from Gujarat and shared the same linguistic and cultural heritage. Despite becoming a barrister and living abroad, with access to many opportunities, he remained deeply connected to the values instilled in him by his family. He relinquished material comforts to serve the people of Bharat, dedicating himself to the country’s independence struggle. Even today, Mahatma Gandhi’s influence on Indian life is visible in numerous ways. One of his defining qualities was that he practised what he preached. Take cleanliness, for instance—he was a staunch advocate, but he also personally engaged in cleaning and constantly encouraged others to do the same. Bharat's freedom struggle was unique. Whether under Mughal or British rule, despite centuries of subjugation, there was never a time or a place in Bharat where the spirit of resistance was absent. Many goal-oriented revolutionaries sacrificed their lives for freedom, spending their youth in prisons. Gandhi, too, fought for independence, but he introduced a crucial difference—he transformed the freedom struggle into a mass movement. Through his leadership, he infused even the most mundane activities with the spirit of resistance. If someone swept the floor, Gandhi would say, "You are doing this for freedom." If someone taught a child, he would say, "You are working for freedom." Whether spinning the charkha (spinning wheel), making khadi, or serving leprosy patients, he linked every act to the fight for independence. This approach made the common man feel like a soldier in the freedom movement.
Gandhi’s ability to mobilise the masses was so profound that the British never fully understood it. Who would have thought that a pinch of salt could spark a revolution? Yet, Gandhi did just that with the Dandi March. His simplicity, demeanour, manner of speaking, and even his posture all left a lasting impact. Many of his anecdotes are well-known. One instance stands out—when he was on his way to the Round Table Conference, an Englishman accompanied him to Buckingham Palace for a meeting with King George. Gandhi arrived wearing nothing but a simple dhoti and a shawl. Many objected, questioning whether such attire was appropriate for meeting the King. In response, Gandhi humorously remarked, "Why should I worry about clothing? The King is wearing enough for both of us." His wit and humility were remarkable. More importantly, he awakened a sense of collective responsibility and recognised the power of the people. This philosophy continues to guide me today. Whatever I undertake, I strive to involve the public as much as possible. I firmly believe that the government alone cannot accomplish everything—society’s collective strength is immense.
Lex Fridman: Gandhi was undoubtedly one of the greatest leaders of the 20th century, and you are one of the most prominent leaders of the 21st century. These eras are distinct, yet you have mastered the art of geopolitics. You have navigated negotiations with major nations effectively. Do you believe it is better to be loved or feared? It appears that people admire you, yet they also recognise your strength. How do you maintain this balance?
Prime Minister: Firstly, I do not believe it is appropriate to make such comparisons. Whether it is the 20th, 21st, or even the 22nd century, Mahatma Gandhi remains a timeless figure. His relevance endures across generations. As for myself, I have a responsibility—but that responsibility is not about Modi as an individual. The true greatness lies in my country, not in any one person. My strength does not come from Modi, but from 140 crore Indians, from our millennia-old culture and traditions. That is why, wherever I go, I do not represent myself—I carry with me thousands of years of heritage, from the Vedas to Vivekananda, and the aspirations of 140 crore people. When I shake hands with a world leader, it is not Modi’s hand they grasp—it is the hand of 140 crore Indians. That is where true power resides. I recall in 2013, when my party announced me as the Prime Ministerial candidate, there was significant debate. Many questioned whether I, as someone who had only governed a state, would be capable of handling foreign policy. Interviewers frequently asked how I would manage international relations. My response was simple: "Bharat will neither bow its head nor look down on others. Bharat will engage with the world as an equal, maintaining mutual respect." That philosophy still guides me today. My country comes first, but respecting others is equally important. Our cultural values do not support insulting or belittling anyone. Bharat has always upheld the principle of 'Jai Jagat' (Victory to the World) and 'Vasudhaiva Kutumbakam' (The World is One Family), fostering a vision of global welfare. Many of my global initiatives reflect this ethos. For instance, in discussions about environmental challenges, I introduced the idea of 'One Sun, One World, One Grid'. During the COVID-19 pandemic, I advocated for One Earth, One Health. These concepts embody the interconnectedness of the world. Today, no country can act in isolation—cooperation and coordination are essential. Institutions like the United Nations emerged in the aftermath of World War II, yet necessary reforms have not kept pace with changing times. This raises an ongoing debate about their relevance. The world must adapt, and we must all work together towards global well-being.
Lex Fridman: You have spoken about possessing the skills, experience, and geopolitical influence necessary to foster global peace. In today's world, where conflicts are rampant, you have the potential to be the greatest peacemaker on the global stage. Could you share your approach to establishing peace? For instance, how would you mediate a peace agreement between two warring nations, such as Russia and Ukraine?
Prime Minister: I represent a nation that is the land of Lord Buddha. I represent a country that is the land of Mahatma Gandhi. These are great figures whose teachings, words, actions, and conduct are entirely devoted to peace. Culturally and historically, Bharat has a strong foundation that commands global attention whenever we speak of peace. The world listens to us because we come from the land of Buddha and Gandhi, and our stance is never in favour of conflict—we advocate for harmony. We do not seek conflict, neither with nature nor between nations; we seek coordination and cooperation. If we can contribute to this in any way, we continuously strive to do so. For instance, I share close relations with both Russia and Ukraine. I can sit along with President Putin and tell the media that this is not the time for war. Similarly, I can speak candidly with President Zelensky and say, "Brother, no matter how much global support you receive, wars do not yield solutions—peace is achieved at the negotiating table." A resolution will only be found when both Ukraine and Russia are seated at that table. No amount of external mediation will be effective unless both parties are directly involved. Initially, there was limited understanding of this, but given the current situation, I am optimistic. Both Russia and Ukraine have suffered significant losses, and the world has borne the consequences. The Global South, in particular, has endured hardships, with crises in food, fuel, and fertiliser. The entire world now seeks peace as soon as possible. I have always been clear: I stand for peace. I am not neutral—I take a position, and my position is peace. I am actively working towards it.
Lex Fridman: Another historically complex and highly dangerous conflict is that between Bharat and Pakistan. Both nations are nuclear powers, and their ideological differences run deep. You are a leader who envisions a progressive future and seeks peace. How do you see a path forward for friendship and reconciliation between Bharat and Pakistan?
Prime Minister: Firstly, there are certain historical facts that many around the world may not be aware of. Before 1947, Indians of all faiths fought side by side in the struggle for independence. The entire nation yearned for freedom and was preparing to celebrate it. However, due to various compulsions at the time—compulsions that are open to extensive discussion—the policymakers of that era agreed to the partition of Bharat. The idea was that if some Muslims desired a separate nation, they should be granted one. The people of Bharat accepted this decision with a heavy heart, enduring immense pain. However, the acceptance of partition led to one of the bloodiest tragedies in history. Lakhs were massacred, and trains arrived from Pakistan filled with the bodies of slaughtered innocents. It was a horrifying sight. Given that Pakistan had been granted its own land, one might have expected gratitude and a commitment to peaceful coexistence. However, instead of embracing peace, Pakistan chose a path of perpetual hostility towards Bharat. Even today, a proxy war persists. This is not a matter of ideology—no ideology justifies the killing of innocent people. Yet, Pakistan has consistently engaged in exporting terrorism. And this is not limited to Bharat—whenever a terrorist attack occurs anywhere in the world, there is almost always a trace leading back to Pakistan. Consider the 9/11 attacks in the United States—the mastermind, Osama bin Laden, was found hiding in Pakistan. The world has now recognised Pakistan as a hub of terrorist activity. It has become a source of trouble not just for Bharat but for the entire world. We have repeatedly urged Pakistan to abandon this destructive path. We have told them that state-sponsored terrorism must end. Handing over the fate of an entire nation to non-state actors serves no one's interests. As part of our peace efforts, I personally travelled to Lahore. When I became Prime Minister, I took the initiative of inviting Pakistan to my swearing-in ceremony, hoping for an auspicious new beginning. However, every genuine effort for peace has been met with hostility. We can only hope that better sense will prevail and that Pakistan will choose the path of peace and prosperity. I believe that even the common people of Pakistan must be weary of this endless cycle of violence. No citizen wishes to live in constant fear, witnessing bloodshed every day. The terrorists who are sent across borders lose their own lives, and their families suffer.
Lex Fridman: Is there a particular instance where you made efforts to improve relations with Pakistan? Perhaps a story that could offer a blueprint for future peace?
Prime Minister: The first major breakthrough in improving relations was inviting him to my swearing-in ceremony as soon as I became Prime Minister. This, in itself, was a historic event—one that had not occurred in decades. In 2013, many questioned what Modi’s foreign policy would be, and they were taken aback when they learned that I had invited all the leaders of SAARC nations to the ceremony. This decision, and the process behind it, was later documented in detail by our then-President, Pranab Mukherjee, in his memoirs. It was a defining moment that demonstrated the clarity, confidence, and vision of Bharat's foreign policy. It also conveyed to the world how deeply committed Bharat is to peace. However, despite the significance of this gesture, the desired outcomes did not materialise.
Lex Fridman: I have a slightly lighter question for you. In your opinion, which cricket team is better—India or Pakistan? The rivalry between the two teams is legendary, both on the pitch and in terms of geopolitical tensions, as you just discussed. What role do sports, particularly cricket and football, play in fostering better relations and mutual cooperation between nations?
Prime Minister: Sport is a source of energy for the entire world. The spirit of sportsmanship serves as a unifying force. I would not want sports to be tarnished by external influences. I have always regarded sports as an essential part of human progress and development. As for which team is superior, I am not an expert in cricketing techniques, so it would be best to leave that assessment to those who are. However, the results speak for themselves. Just recently, there was a match between India and Pakistan. The outcome of that match naturally indicates which team is currently the stronger one.
Lex Fridman: Yes, I recently watched a series called The Greatest Rivalry: India vs Pakistan, which highlights some incredible players and matches. It is fascinating to witness such intense competition. You also mentioned football, which is extremely popular in Bharat. So, here’s a difficult question—who is your favourite footballer? We have legends like Messi, Pelé, Maradona, Cristiano Ronaldo, and Zidane. In your view, who is the greatest footballer of all time?
Prime Minister: Football is widely played in many regions of Bharat, and our women’s and men’s teams are making great strides. If we look at the past, particularly the 1980s, Maradona's name is often the first to come up. He was a hero to that generation. However, if you ask today’s young football enthusiasts, they are likely to name Messi as their icon. Your question reminds me of an interesting incident. In central India, in the state of Madhya Pradesh, there is a district called Shahdol. It is home to a predominantly tribal population. I have a habit of engaging with self-help groups run by tribal women, as I find these interactions deeply enriching. During one such visit, I noticed around 80 to 100 young people dressed in sports uniforms—some were children, others were teenagers, and a few were older. Naturally, I was curious and approached them. I asked, "Where are you all from?" They replied, "We are from Mini Brazil." I was intrigued and asked, "What do you mean by Mini Brazil?" They explained that their village is known by that name because football has been played there for four generations. The village has produced nearly 80 national-level players, and the entire community is dedicated to the sport. They even told me that during their annual football match, 20,000 to 25,000 spectators from nearby villages come to watch. This story reflects the growing passion for football in Bharat, and I see it as a positive development. Football fosters teamwork and camaraderie.
Lex Fridman: Absolutely—football is one of those sports that unites people not only in Bharat but across the world. It demonstrates the power of sport in bringing people together. You recently visited the United States and rekindled your friendship with Donald Trump. What do you admire about him as both a friend and a leader?
Prime Minister: Rather than simply stating my opinion, let me share an experience that might offer some insight. We had an event in Houston called Howdy Modi, which was attended by both President Trump and myself. The stadium was packed—an incredible sight for a political event in the United States, especially in a venue usually reserved for sporting events. The Indian diaspora had gathered in large numbers. Both of us delivered speeches. While I was speaking, President Trump sat and listened attentively. This, to me, reflected his humility. The President of the United States, sitting among the audience, listening to my speech—this was a significant gesture on his part. After finishing my speech, I went to thank him for attending. Given the tight security in the U.S. and the extensive protocols in place, I hesitated for a moment but then suggested, "Would you mind taking a walk around the stadium with me?" There were thousands of people present, many raising their hands in greeting, offering their 'namaste'. In American political life, it is almost unthinkable for a sitting U.S. President to walk freely among a massive crowd. Yet, without a moment’s hesitation, President Trump agreed. He walked with me, disregarding the usual security concerns. The American security personnel were visibly taken aback. That moment revealed something profound to me—this is a man of courage. He makes his own decisions. And, importantly, he trusted me. He had enough faith in me to walk into that crowd without hesitation. This mutual trust and understanding formed the foundation of our relationship. Later, when he was shot during his recent election campaign, I saw the same President Trump—the same determined individual. He survived, and his unwavering commitment to America remained intact. I am a 'Nation First' person. He is an 'America First' person. I am an 'Bharat First' person. That is why we connect so well. These shared principles are what resonate between us. One of the issues in global politics is that media narratives shape how leaders perceive one another. Often, they do not get to know each other personally; their opinions are filtered through external interpretations. When I first visited the White House, President Trump was still relatively new to politics. The media had painted a particular image of him, and I had received various briefings about him. However, when I met him, he immediately broke all formal protocols. He personally took me on a tour of the White House, explaining its history with remarkable precision. He had no notes, no prompts—just an innate knowledge of his country’s institutions. He pointed out where Abraham Lincoln had lived, why a particular courtroom was designed a certain way, and which President had signed important documents at specific desks—all with historical accuracy. That experience left a deep impression on me. It showed how much he values American institutions and history. His knowledge and respect for his country’s legacy were evident. Even during the four years he was not in office, he maintained a strong connection. At least fifty times, he conveyed messages through mutual acquaintances, saying, "Modi is my friend, convey my regards." Such continuity in a relationship is rare in politics. Even when we were not meeting in person, our communication remained intact.
Lex Fridman: During your recent visit, he mentioned that you are a better and smarter negotiator than he is. What are your thoughts on him as a negotiator? And what do you think he meant when he said that you are good at negotiating?
Prime Minister: I cannot comment on that, as it is his generosity that, despite being younger than him, he openly praises me on various matters. However, one thing is certain—I place my country's interests above all else. That is why I always advocate for Bharat's interests on every platform. I do so not to harm anyone but in a constructive manner, ensuring that no one takes offence. Yet, everyone understands that if Modi is present, he will firmly stand by these principles. The people of my country have entrusted me with this responsibility, and for me, they are my ultimate authority. I will always act according to their aspirations.
Lex Fridman: During your visit to the US, you held important meetings with several notable individuals, including Elon Musk, JD Vance, Tulsi Gabbard, and Vivek Ramaswamy. What were the key highlights of these meetings? Were there any significant decisions or memorable moments?
Prime Minister: I can say that I have observed President Trump both during his first term and now, in his second. This time, he is significantly more prepared. He has a well-defined roadmap and a clear strategy in mind for what he intends to accomplish. Moreover, I had the opportunity to meet members of his team, and I must say, he has assembled a highly competent group. From my conversations with them, I gathered that they are well-equipped to implement his vision effectively. As for the people I met—whether it was Tulsi ji, Vivek ji, or Elon Musk—there was a warm, almost familial atmosphere. Many of them came with their families. I have known Elon Musk since my tenure as Chief Minister, so our meeting felt familiar and personal. He brought his family and children along, which made the gathering even more informal and engaging. Naturally, our conversations spanned various topics. Currently, he is deeply invested in his space missions, and his enthusiasm about their progress is palpable. It was equally gratifying for me to witness this, as I, too, have been committed to liberating my country from outdated systems and inefficiencies since taking office in 2014. For instance, when I assumed office, I noticed that several government welfare benefits were being claimed by individuals who did not even exist—ghost identities that had been fraudulently registered. Some of these fictitious beneficiaries would "get married," "become widows," and start receiving pensions, or falsely claim disability benefits. I launched an extensive scrutiny process and identified and removed a staggering 100 million (10 crore) fake or duplicate beneficiaries from the system. The savings generated from this clean-up were channelled directly to genuine beneficiaries through Direct Benefit Transfers (DBT). This ensured that every rupee sanctioned in Delhi reached the intended recipient without any intermediaries. This initiative alone saved my country approximately Rs 3 lakh crore, which previously would have been siphoned off through corruption. Additionally, I have been leveraging technology extensively to eliminate inefficiencies. I introduced the GEM portal, an e-marketplace for government procurement, which has led to cost reductions, improved competition, and better quality purchases. Another major initiative was reducing bureaucratic red tape. Bharat was burdened with countless regulatory compliances, many of which were obsolete. I scrapped 40,000 such compliances and abolished around 1,500 outdated laws. By doing so, I aimed to free the government from redundant processes that hinder efficiency. These are the kinds of transformative changes we have been implementing, and naturally, such topics arise in discussions.
Lex Fridman: You and President Xi Jinping have shared a friendly relationship. How can that friendship be revitalised to ease recent tensions and re-establish dialogue and cooperation between Bharat and China?
Prime Minister: Look, the relationship between Bharat and China is deeply rooted in history. Both are ancient civilisations with a significant presence in the modern world. If we look at historical records, for centuries, Bharat and China have learned from each other and contributed jointly to global progress. There was a time when Bharat and China collectively accounted for more than 50% of the world's GDP, highlighting their immense influence. Bharat's contribution was so huge. The ties between our nations have always been strong, with profound cultural connections, and, historically, there was no record of conflict between us. Instead, there was a spirit of mutual learning and exchange. For instance, the influence of Buddhism in China, which originated in Bharat, was profound. Looking ahead, it is imperative that we continue fostering these strong ties. Disagreements between neighbouring countries are inevitable—this is not just a diplomatic reality but something that happens even within families. However, we strive to ensure that these differences do not escalate into disputes. We firmly believe in dialogue over discord, as stability and cooperation are in the best interests of both nations. It is true that our border dispute persists. The events of 2020 created significant strain in our relationship. However, after my recent meeting with President Xi, we have seen a return to normalcy at the border, and we are steadily working towards restoring the pre-2020 status quo. Rebuilding trust and rekindling the spirit of collaboration will take time, given the five-year gap in active engagement. However, our partnership is not just beneficial but also crucial for global stability and prosperity. In the 21st century—often called the "Century of Asia"—healthy competition between Bharat and China is natural and even desirable, but conflict is not.
Lex Fridman: There is growing global concern about the possibility of a large-scale war. Tensions between China and the US, the ongoing conflict between Ukraine and Russia, unrest in Europe, and hostilities in the Middle East all contribute to this stress. What, in your view, can be done to prevent a global war in the 21st century? How can we avoid further escalation of conflicts?
Prime Minister: Look, the COVID-19 pandemic exposed the vulnerabilities of all nations. Regardless of how powerful, progressive, or technologically advanced a country considers itself, the pandemic humbled everyone. It brought the entire world to its knees. For a brief moment, it seemed as though the world would learn valuable lessons from this crisis and move towards a new, cooperative global order—just as a new world order emerged after the Second World War. Unfortunately, instead of progressing towards peace, the world plunged into uncertainty. Conflicts escalated, and geopolitical tensions deepened. Modern wars are no longer just about resources or territorial expansion. Today, conflicts take many forms—not just physical battles but ideological and economic struggles as well. Meanwhile, the international institutions established to maintain order have become largely ineffective. There has been little to no meaningful reform in organisations like the United Nations. Many global powers disregard international laws and norms, and there is no mechanism to hold them accountable. Given these challenges, the world must recognise that the path of confrontation leads only to destruction. Instead, we must prioritise cooperation and coordination. Expansionist ambitions will not yield positive outcomes; only a developmental and inclusive approach will. We live in an era of deep interdependence and interconnectedness—no nation can thrive in isolation. Every country needs the support of others. I have observed, through my engagements at various international forums, that world leaders are deeply concerned about rising conflicts. There is a strong desire for resolution. It is my hope that, sooner rather than later, we will find a way to break free from this cycle of tension and move towards a more stable, peaceful world.
Lex Fridman: I am still learning.
Prime Minister: You are looking at the watch.
Lex Fridman: No, no, I am still learning this, Prime Minister. I’m not very good at it yet, okay. In your career and life, you have witnessed many difficult situations in India’s history. One of them was the 2002 Gujarat riots. It was one of the most challenging times in India’s recent history when violence broke out between Hindu and Muslim communities in Gujarat, resulting in over a thousand deaths. This reflects the religious tensions in that region. As you mentioned, at that time, you were the Chief Minister of Gujarat. If we talk about it, what did you learn from that period? I also want to mention that India’s Supreme Court has ruled twice—once in 2012 and again in 2022—stating that you had no role in the violence during the 2002 Gujarat riots. But I wanted to ask, what were the biggest lessons you learned from that time?
Prime Minister: Look, I understand that, first of all, you said that you are not an expert on this subject, that you are still figuring out how to conduct an interview, and that you have some doubts in your mind. But I feel that you have put in a lot of effort, done extensive research, and tried to understand every detail. So, I don’t believe that anything is too difficult for you. Given the number of podcasts you have done I believe that you are consistently performing well. And rather than just questioning Modi, I feel that you have made a sincere effort to understand Bharat’s environment. That is why I believe that your efforts to reach the truth show sincerity. I truly appreciate and congratulate you for this effort.
Lex Fridman: Thank you.
Prime Minister: As far as your mention of past events goes, you referred to the 2002 Gujarat riots. But before that, I would like to present a picture of the 12–15 months leading up to it so that you can understand the context of the situation. For example, on December 24, 1999, three years earlier, a flight from Kathmandu to Delhi was hijacked and taken to Afghanistan, to Kandahar. Hundreds of Indian passengers were held hostage. It was a massive crisis across Bharat—a matter of life and death. Then, in 2000, there was a terrorist attack on the Red Fort in Delhi, adding another crisis to the situation. On September 11, 2001, a major terrorist attack took place on the Twin Towers in the U.S., once again alarming the world because the perpetrators of such attacks were of the same kind. In October 2001, there was a terrorist attack on the Jammu & Kashmir Assembly. On December 13, 2001, there was an attack on the Indian Parliament. Now, if you look at this period of 8–10 months, you will see global events, terrorist attacks, bloodshed, and the deaths of innocent people. In such times, even a small spark can be enough to ignite unrest, and such a situation had already developed. It was in this environment that, on October 7, 2001, I was suddenly given the responsibility of becoming the Chief Minister. My biggest responsibility at that time was the rehabilitation of Gujarat after the massive earthquake that had occurred earlier. It was the biggest earthquake of the previous century, in which thousands had died. Suddenly, this responsibility as CM came to me. It was very important and got involved in it the day I took oath as Chief Minister. I was someone who had never been part of the government before. I had no prior experience in governance. I had never been an MLA. I had never contested an election. For the first time in my life, I had to contest an election, and on February 24, 2002, I became an MLA—an elected representative. For the first time, on February 24, 25, or 26, I stepped into the Gujarat Assembly. Then, on February 27, 2002, during the budget session of the Assembly, we were in the House, when I had been an MLA for just three days, the Godhra incident happened—a horrifying event where people were burned alive. Now, imagine this: in the background, there had been the Kandahar plane hijacking, the Parliament attack, 9/11, and many other such incidents, and then suddenly, this horrific event in which a large number of people were burned alive. Can you imagine what the situation must have been like? Of course, no one wants violence. Everyone wants peace. As for the claim that 2002 was a period of major riots, that is a false narrative. If you look at the data before 2002, Gujarat had seen numerous riots. There was always a curfew somewhere. Even minor incidents—like a fight over a kite or a bicycle accident—would turn into communal violence. Before 2002, there were more than 250 major riots in Gujarat. In 1969, Gujarat witnessed riots that lasted for nearly six months. Back then, I was nowhere in the political picture—I am talking about that time. The 2002 incident became a sparking point, leading to violence in some places. However, the judiciary examined everything in great detail. The governments at that time, including our opposition, were in power, and they wanted to hold me accountable and punish me. Despite their repeated attempts, the judiciary analysed everything in depth—not once, but twice—and we were found completely innocent. Those who committed crimes were punished by the courts. But the most important thing is this: Before 2002, Gujarat experienced riots almost every year. But today, in 2025, there has been no major riot in Gujarat for the last 20–22 years. There is complete peace. Our approach has never been about vote-bank politics. We follow the principle of "Sabka Saath, Sabka Vikas, Sabka Vishwas, Sabka Prayas". We have moved away from the politics of appeasement and embraced the politics of aspiration. That is why people from all backgrounds have joined us in our efforts to develop Gujarat into a progressive and prosperous state. Now, we are working towards a ‘Viksit Bharat’(Developed India), and Gujarat continues to play its role in that mission.
Lex Fridman: Many people love you—I’ve heard this from many individuals. But there are also people who criticize you, including members of the media. The media, in particular, has criticized you for the 2002 Gujarat riots. How do you handle criticism? How do you deal with critics, whether they come from the media, from people around you, or from anywhere in your life?
Prime Minister: Look, regarding what you just asked—how do I handle criticism? If I were to put it in one sentence, I welcome it. I firmly believe that criticism is the soul of democracy. If you are truly democratic, if democracy is in your blood, then, as our scriptures say: "Nindak niyare rakhiye" (Keep your critics close to you). Criticism allows you to work in a democratic, informed, and effective manner. I believe that criticism should happen—it should happen more and should be sharp and thorough. But my complaint is that real criticism is not happening these days. True criticism requires deep study, in-depth research, and distinguishing between truth and falsehood. Today, people look for shortcuts—they don’t study, they don’t research, they don’t take the effort to find out weaknesses and get involved in levelling charges. There is a big difference between an allegation and criticism. The references you made—those are allegations, not criticisms. For democracy to be strong, we need real criticism, not baseless accusations. Allegations help no one; they only lead to petty arguments. That’s why I always welcome criticism. But when the allegations are false, I remain calm, composed, and remain dedicated to my service to the nation.
Lex Fridman: Yes, what you’re talking about is very important to me because I truly admire good journalism. Unfortunately, in modern times, many journalists are only chasing quick headlines. They make allegations because it benefits them—because they want sensational headlines and cheap popularity. I believe that to be a great journalist, one must have the desire and hunger. That requires deep understanding and thorough research. It saddens me to see how often shallow reporting happens. This is actually one of the reasons why I wanted to talk to you. I don’t think I’m very good at this, but I wanted to have this conversation with you for these very reasons. People don’t try hard enough; they don’t research deeply. I don’t even know how many books I’ve read while preparing for this—just trying to experience and understand things properly. It takes a lot of preparation, a lot of work. And I wish that more major journalists should do the same. That kind of in-depth research and effort is what allows real criticism to happen—a deep investigation into those in power, their strengths, weaknesses, and even their mistakes. But to do this, a lot of preparation is required. I truly wish more great journalists would work in this way.
Prime Minister: Look, let me explain. Well-directed and specific criticism actually helps in policy-making. It brings out a clear-cut policy vision. I pay special attention to such constructive criticism, and I welcome it. Now, as you mentioned about journalism and headlines, I believe that if someone has a fascination with headlines or plays with word choices, I don’t take it too negatively. However, when journalism is driven by an agenda, when truth is ignored, that causes damage for decades to come. If someone enjoys using clever words to attract their readers or audience, fine, a little compromise is acceptable. But if the intent is wrong, if the goal is to manipulate facts according to a set agenda, then that becomes a serious concern.
Lex Fridman: And in that, truth suffers; that is my belief.
Prime Minister: I remember, once I had given a speech in London. There is a Gujarati newspaper in London, and they had organized an event where I was invited… So, in my speech, since the event was for journalists, I said – "What should journalism be like? Should it be like a housefly or like a honeybee?" I explained that a housefly sits on filth and spreads more filth. But a honeybee sits on flowers, collects nectar, and spreads sweetness. However, if someone does something wrong, a honeybee stings in such a way that for three days, the person cannot show their face. But someone picked up only half of my statement and created a huge controversy out of it. Honestly, I was not saying anything negative about anyone. I was actually highlighting the strength of a honeybee—that even a small sting can make a person hide their face for three days. One will have to hide his face. This is the power journalism should have. However, some people prefer the path of the housefly.
Lex Fridman: Now, my new life goal is to be like a honeybee. You mentioned democracy… and until 2002, you didn’t have much knowledge about the government. But from 2002 till today, by my count, you have won eight elections. In India, more than 800 million people vote in various elections. To win such massive elections and to emerge victorious in a country of 1.4 billion people—what does it take? How do you get the opportunity to represent the people in the world’s largest democracy?
Prime Minister: The thing is, I entered politics quite late. Initially, I worked for the organization, handling responsibilities related to election management. That took up most of my time. For the past 24 years, the people of Gujarat and the country have given me the opportunity to serve as the Head of Government. With complete dedication, I consider the people as a form of God. The responsibility they have entrusted me with—I strive to fulfil it. I never let their trust break. They see me as I am. My government follows policies of saturation, meaning that every scheme should be implemented 100%, reaching all beneficiaries without any discrimination—no bias of caste, religion, faith, wealth, or politics. When policies are for everyone, people don’t feel they are being denied something unfairly. Even if someone hasn’t benefited yet, they believe they will in the future. It creates a trust. This trust in governance is a great strength. Secondly, I do not run election-centric governance; I run people-centric governance. My focus is on what benefits the people and the country. Initially, I had set out on a spiritual journey, but now, I see my nation as divine and the people as God. Like a priest serves his deity, I dedicate myself to serving the people. Secondly, I never distance myself from the public—I live among them and like them. I openly say, "If you work 11 hours, I will work 12." People see this and believe in it. I have no personal interests—no relatives or close associates benefiting from my position. The common citizen values these things. Perhaps, there may be several other reasons. Another key factor is my party which has millions of dedicated workers who live only for the welfare of Bharat Mata and the people of the country. They have gained nothing for themselves—never sought positions of power—yet they tirelessly work for the country. There are lakhs of workers who work day and night. My party is the world’s largest political party. I am proud that I am member of it. My party is relatively young, but despite that there are efforts of lakhs of workers. The hard work of these lakhs of selfless workers strengthens people’s faith in the Bharatiya Janata Party. Their dedication is why we win elections. I have never counted how many elections I have won, but the people's blessings have always been with us.
Lex Fridman: I was thinking about your views on the incredible electoral system and machinery in India. The way elections are conducted in India has amazed me. So many interesting stories emerge. For example, there is a rule that no voter should be more than two kilometres away from a polling station. Because of this, there are many stories about carrying voting machines to India’s most remote areas. It’s truly incredible—every single voter matters. Managing elections for more than 600 million voters is a huge logistical challenge. Is there a particular story that stands out to you as especially impressive? Or could you talk more generally about how such massive elections are conducted in the world’s largest democracy?
Prime Minister: First of all, I am very grateful to you for asking such an important question. People who believe in democracy worldwide should listen to this answer. Often, discussions focus only on winning and losing elections, but not on the massive scale at which our electoral process operates. Take the 2024 Lok Sabha election, for example. There were 980 million registered voters, and each one had a photograph and full bio-data recorded. This number is more than twice the population of North America and greater than the entire European Union’s population. Out of these 980 million registered voters, 646 million people stepped out of their homes to vote, despite the scorching heat of May, where temperatures in some places reached 40 degrees Celsius. They cast their votes. To put it in perspective, the number of people who voted in India is double the total population of the United States. There were over one million polling booths across the country. Imagine the manpower required for this! My country has over 2,500 registered political parties—a figure that astonishes the world that there is a country which has more than 2,500 registered political parties. We also have more than 900 TV news channels running 24×7 and over 5,000 daily newspapers covering elections. Despite being a vast and diverse country, even the poorest villagers quickly adapt to technology. Our citizens use Electronic Voting Machines (EVMs), making elections efficient. In some countries, election results take months, but in our country, we count votes for millions of people and declare results within a day. As you rightly said, polling stations are set up even in remote areas, sometimes requiring helicopters to transport voting equipment and officials. For example, there is a polling booth in Arunachal Pradesh that might be the highest in the world. In Gujarat’s Gir Forest, a special polling booth was set up for just one voter—because every single vote matters in Indian democracy. We continuously strive to strengthen democracy by ensuring free and fair elections. Bharat’s Election Commission conducts these elections independently, making all decisions without political interference. This in itself is a bright story in itself. I believe that major universities across the world should study our election management as a case study. It is a source of motivation—showing how deeply politically aware our citizens are. This should be presented to the new generation worldwide as an example of how a democracy should function.
Lex Fridman: I love democracy. It’s one of the reasons I love America. But the way democracy functions in India—there’s nothing more beautiful than that. As you said, 900 million people are registered to vote! This is truly a case study. It’s incredible to see so many people, of their own free will, coming together with enthusiasm to vote for someone who will represent them. They take part with great passion. It’s important for people to feel that their voices are heard. That is truly beautiful. Speaking of voices being heard—a lot of people love you. You are one of the most powerful individuals in the world. Do you ever reflect on how having so much power might affect you, especially after so many years in office?
Prime Minister: First of all, I feel the word "powerful" doesn’t fit my life. I cannot claim to be powerful, because I see myself as a servant. In fact, I refer to myself as the “Pradhan Sevak”—the chief servant of the people. Service is my guiding principle. As for power, I have never been bothered by it. I never entered politics to play power games. Instead of being powerful, I would say I strive to be pro-workful. I am not powerful, but I am pro-workful. My goal has always been to serve people and make a positive contribution to their lives. That is my purpose.
Lex Fridman: As you mentioned, you work tirelessly and put your whole heart into it. Do you ever feel lonely?
Prime Minister: See, I never feel lonely. That’s because I firmly believe in the "1+1" theory. This thery of “1+1” supports me. Now, if someone asks me what this 1+1 means, I say: The first 1 is Modi. And the second +1 is God. I am never alone because He is always with me. That’s the spirit I live with. As I mentioned earlier, I have followed the principles of Swami Vivekananda, who believed in “Nara Seva is Narayana Seva”—serving people is serving God. For me, the nation is divine, the people are divine. Public service is service to the Almighty, and that is the mindset with which I work. So, I have never had to deal with loneliness. Even during the COVID-19 lockdown, when travel was restricted, I kept myself engaged. I adapted governance to video conferencing, developed a work-from-home model, and continued virtual meetings to ensure that work never stopped. I always kept myself busy. Additionally, I made it a point to stay connected with people. I decided to call senior party workers, those who were 70+ years old, and check in on them. These were grassroots workers, many from humble backgrounds, who had dedicated their lives to serving the country. I personally called them to ask: How are you feeling? How is your family? How are things in your locality during the pandemic? This strengthened my bond with them, and they felt deeply touched. They would say, “Despite all the responsibilities on his shoulders, he still remembers us during this time!” During the pandemic, I made 30-40 such calls daily, without fail. This gave me immense joy, as I got to reconnect with old colleagues and revisit past memories. So, for me, loneliness doesn’t exist. I always find ways to keep myself busy and connected. Also, I have a habit of talking to myself. My time in the Himalayas during my early years has greatly helped me with this.
Lex Fridman: I've heard from many people that among all the people they know, you are the hardest-working person. What is your mindset behind this? You work long hours every day. Don't you ever get tired? What is the source of your strength and patience through all this?
Prime Minister: Look, first of all, I don’t believe that I am the only one working hard. When I look around, I see so many people working even harder than me. When I think of a farmer, I realize how much effort they put in, sweating under the open sky. When I see our soldiers, I think about how they endure extreme conditions—some in the snow, some in the desert, and some in the ocean—working tirelessly day and night to protect our nation. When I watch a labourer, I am amazed at their hard work. And when I think about mothers and sisters in every household, I see how much they do for their families—waking up first, sleeping last, taking care of everyone, and managing social responsibilities. So when I think about all this, I ask myself: How can I sleep? How can I rest? The people around me – The hard work of every Indian motivates me. Secondly, my responsibility keeps me running. The people of the country have entrusted me with a duty, and I feel that I am not here to enjoy power, but to serve the nation with full dedication. I may not be able to do two things, but I will never lack in my efforts. When I was contesting elections in 2014 and even when I was in Gujarat and then I came to Delhi, I made a promise to the countrymen that I will never shy away from hard work. Secondly, I said that I will never act with bad intentions. And thirdly, I said that I will never work for personal gain. Today, after 24 years of being Head of Government, I have held myself to these three principles. And I do that. And I will continue to give my best to serve the 1.4 billion people of my country for their aspirations, for their needs. My energy and commitment remain the same as ever!
Lex Fridman: As an engineer and a lover of mathematics, I must ask—Srinivasa Ramanujan was an Indian mathematician from a century ago. He is considered one of the greatest mathematicians in history. Completely self-taught, he grew up in poverty. You have often spoken about him. What inspiration do you draw from him?
Prime Minister: Look, I have great respect for him, and in my country, everyone respects him because I believe there is a deep connection between Science and Spirituality. If you look closely, many scientifically advanced minds are also spiritually advanced—they are not disconnected from spirituality. Srinivasa Ramanujan used to say that his mathematical ideas came from the goddess he worshipped. This means that ideas come from deep dedication. And dedication is not just hard work—it is about completely devoting oneself to a cause, immersing oneself so deeply that they become one with their work. The more open we are to different sources of knowledge the more ideas we will receive. It is also important to understand the difference between information and knowledge. Some people mistake information for knowledge—they accumulate vast amounts of information and carry it around. But I do not believe that having information means having knowledge. Knowledge is a discipline—it evolves gradually through processing. We must understand this distinction and handle it wisely.
Lex Fridman: You have the image of a decisive leader. So, can you tell me something about the process of making decisions? How do you make decisions? What is your process? When something significant is at stake, when there is no clear precedent, when there is a lot of uncertainty, and when you need to strike a balance, how do you make decisions?
Prime Minister: There are many aspects to this. One, I believe I am probably the only politician in India who has spent a night in 85 to 90 percent of the districts in the country. In my previous life, I used to travel extensively. What I have learned and observed from that is first-hand knowledge of the grassroots—not something read in books or told by others. Second, from a governance perspective, I do not carry any baggage that would hold me back or dictate my actions. Third, I have a simple yardstick for decision-making: My country comes first. I always ask myself: Is what I am doing is not harming my nation in any way? Mahatma Gandhi would often say: "Whenever you face a dilemma in making a decision, think of the face of the poorest person you have met. Then think will your decision help them? Then your decision will be right. This principle helps me a lot. I always try to think about the common man and whether my decision will benefit them. Another important factor is that I stay well-connected. My government officials might feel envious or frustrated because I have multiple channels of live information flow. I do not rely only on briefings— I have several information channels and many of them are live. Therefore, I get a lot of information from them. I get information from multiple sources. I simply don’t rely on information if somebody briefs me. There are other facets as well. Additionally, I have the mindset of a student. If an officer tells me something, I question them thoroughly—"Why is this so? What happens next? How does this work?" If I have different information, I play the devil’s advocate and challenge their views. This deep churning of ideas helps me extract the essence of the matter. Secondly, when I make a decision, I test it by casually sharing it with like-minded individuals and observing their reactions. Once I feel convinced, I proceed with full confidence. And let me tell you—this process does not take much time. My speed is very high. Let me give you an example. During COVID-19, how did I make decisions? I met Nobel Prize-winning economists, and they gave me various theories—“This country did this, that country did that. You should also do the same.” Top economists used to rack up my mind. Political parties put pressure on me—"Give this much money to people, do that!" But I did not take any hasty action. I analysed the situation deeply. Then I took the decision keeping in mind the situation of my country. I decided, "No Indian should go hungry." "Basic needs must be met to avoid social unrest." I developed these ideas in my mind. At that time, there was lockdown across the world and global economy was collapsing. The world wanted me to open up the treasury, print currency notes and distribute the same to people. What kind of economic model that would be? I did not want to follow that path. But my experience says that the path that I chose, the opinions that I got from experts, I tried to understand them. I did not even oppose them. Instead, I tailored policies based on India’s unique needs and experiences and developed systems accordingly. As a result: While many nations suffered massive inflation post-COVID, our country remained stable. Today, my country is the fastest-growing major economy—a direct outcome of those tough but wise decisions. I was not tempted by various theories. I did not care whether newspapers would like it or not. Whether they will write good or bad about it or criticise me. I focused on basis fundamentals and proceeded with it. It also helped our economy. My endeavour was to proceed keeping in mind the situation in my country. Secondly, I have great risk taking capacity. I never care if a particular decision will hurt me. If something is right for my country and people, I am ready to take bold decisions. I take ownership. If something goes wrong, I never blame others. I take full responsibility. When a leader takes ownership, his team gains trust. They know, "This man will not let us fail. He will stand with us, because my decisions are honest and in good faith.” I told my countrymen that mistakes may happen. I had already told the people that I am a human and could make mistakes. However, my intent will never be wrong. People also realise these things. They also see that Modi had said something in 2013, but it did not happen. But they also know that my intent was not wrong. They know that I wanted to do something with good intent, but it did not happen. That’s why, society accepts me as I am.
Lex Fridman: A few weeks ago, you delivered an excellent speech on AI at the AI Summit in France. In that speech, you talked about the large number of AI engineers in India—probably one of the largest pools of talented engineers in the world. How can India achieve global leadership in AI? Right now, it is behind the United States. What must India do to surpass other nations and become the best in AI?
Prime Minister: What I am about to say might sound a little bold, and some people may even disagree. But since you have asked, I will speak from my heart. No matter what the world does in AI, without Bharat, AI is incomplete. This is a very responsible statement I am making. Think about it—what has been your own experience with AI? You heard my speech in Paris—what do you think? Can AI be developed by just one country alone? What is your personal experience?
Lex Fridman: Actually, in your speech, you gave a brilliant example of the positive impact and limitations of AI. I believe the example you gave was about asking AI to generate an image of a person…
Prime Minister: With their left hand!
Lex Fridman: Yes, about the left hand—AI always generates an image of a person who writes with their right hand. This shows that when AI systems are developed only by Western countries, and India is not part of that process, AI will always generate an image of a right-handed person because the system was trained that way. India has always been a crucial part of the world, and in the 21st century.
Prime Minister: I believe that AI development is a collaboration. Everyone can support each other by sharing their experiences and learnings. India is not just creating models, but also developing AI-based applications for specific use cases. To ensure that GPU access reaches all sections of society, we already have a unique, marketplace-based model in place. There is a mindset shift happening in India. Due to historical factors, government work processes, or lack of a strong support system, some people may feel that we are slow in AI development. But look at 5G—the world thought we were far behind. But once we started, we became the fastest country in the world to roll out 5G. An American company’s CEO recently shared an experience with me. He said: "If I post a job advertisement for engineers in the U.S., only a roomful of engineers show up. But if I post the same ad in India, even a football stadium won’t be enough for the number of engineers who apply!" This shows the huge talent pool that India has. And Artificial Intelligence can only thrive with Real Intelligence. Without Real Intelligence, Artificial Intelligence has no future. And where is this Real Intelligence? It is in Bharat’s youth talent pool. I think this is Bharat’s greatest strength in AI.
Lex Fridman: But if you look at the top tech leaders—many of them are of Indian origin. From tech talent to tech leadership, we see names like Sundar Pichai, Satya Nadella, Arvind Srinivas. You’ve met some of them. What is it about their Indian background that enables them to be so successful?
Prime Minister: Look, the values that Bharat instils are such that we are taught to respect both our Janmabhoomi (birthplace) and Karmabhoomi (workplace). There should be no distinction between them. Just as we must be dedicated to our homeland, we must also be equally dedicated to the land where we work. And we must always give our best—wherever we are. This is why Indians excel at giving their best no matter where they are—whether they are in high positions or small roles. Another reason is that they do not get caught up in the wrong things. Most of them focus on doing the right work. Also, their nature allows them to adapt and work well with everyone. Ultimately, success is not just about knowledge. Having the ability to work in a team—to understand people and bring out their best work—is a huge factor in leadership. By and large, Indians who grew up in joint families or open societies find it much easier to lead big organizations successfully. And it’s not just these big companies—Indians are holding key positions in governments and institutions around the world. The problem-solving skills and analytical thinking of Indian professionals make them globally competitive and highly valuable. This is why, whether in innovation, entrepreneurship, start-ups, or boardrooms, Indians excel. Now, take our space sector as an example. Earlier, space program was completely government-controlled. A couple of years ago, I opened it up to the private sector. And in just two years, over 200 start-ups have emerged in the space industry. Look at Chandrayaan—India’s moon mission. The cost of our mission is so low that it’s even cheaper than a Hollywood movie! When the world sees how cost-effective our innovations are, they naturally want to collaborate with us. This respect for Indian talent comes from our civilizational ethos. This is our hallmark.
Lex Fridman: So, you spoke about human intelligence. Do you worry that AI (Artificial Intelligence) will replace us?
Prime Minister: See, in every era, there has been an attempt to create a sense of competition—even conflict—between technology and humans. People have often said that technology will challenge humanity. But every time, technology has evolved, and humans have always stayed one step ahead. It has happened every time. Because humans are the ones who learn how to use technology in the best way. Now, AI has reached a point where humans are being forced to reflect on what it truly means to be human. This itself is a testament to AI's power. But no matter how advanced AI becomes, human imagination will always remain unique. AI can generate many things. Maybe, in the future, it will produce even more than we can imagine today. But I do not believe that imagination itself can ever be replaced.
Lex Fridman: I agree with you. It really makes me—and many others—think deeply about what makes humans special. Because there are so many things—like imagination, creativity, consciousness, fear, love, dreams, and the ability to think differently, to go beyond, and beyond! The ability to take risks—all of these things.
Prime Minister: Now, look at care—the innate human ability to care for one another. Can AI do that?
Lex Fridman: This is one of the great unsolved questions of the 21st century. Every year, you organise the "Pariksha Pe Charcha" program, where you directly interact with young students and advise them on how to prepare for exams. I have watched many of these programs. You provide guidance on how to succeed in exams, how to handle stress, and other aspects as well. Could you briefly explain what exams students in India have to take during their educational journey and why they are so stressful?
Prime Minister: By and large, a peculiar mentality has developed in society. Even in schools, success is often measured by how many students secure top ranks. Families also create an environment where a child's rank in exams determines their family's educational and social status. Because of this, pressure on students has increased significantly. Many students start believing that their entire life depends only on their 10th and 12th-grade exams. To change this mindset, we have made significant reforms in our New Education Policy. However, until these changes fully take effect, I feel a personal responsibility to engage with students, understand their concerns, and offer them guidance. When I conduct "Pariksha Pe Charcha," it not only benefits the students but also gives me an opportunity to understand their mindset, their parents' expectations, and the perspectives of educators. So, 'Pariksha Pe Charcha' not only benefits them but also benefits me. Exams are fine for testing oneself in a specific domain, but they cannot be the sole measure of one's overall potential. Many individuals may not have excelled in academics but have achieved remarkable success in other fields, such as cricket, where they score centuries. When the focus is on learning, scores often improve naturally. I remember one of my teachers who used an innovative learning technique. It continues to appeal me even today. He would ask students to bring 10 chickpeas, 15 grains of rice, or 21 mung beans from home. With different numbers and different varieties, the child would think, 'I need to bring 10.' Then, at home, they would count and remember what comes after 10. They would also learn that these are called chickpeas. Then, at school, everyone would gather their items, and the teacher would say, 'Okay, take out 10 chickpeas, 3 chickpeas, 2 green grams, 5 of these.' This way, they would learn math, recognize chickpeas, and understand what green grams are. I am talking about early childhood learning. This kind of learning technique helps children learn without burden, and our new education policy is making efforts in this direction. Another teacher of mine had a creative approach. He placed a diary in the classroom and told students that the first one to arrive in the morning could write a sentence in it along with their name. Each subsequent student had to write a sentence related to the first one. Initially, I used to rush to school early so I could write the first sentence. For example, I once wrote: "Today’s sunrise was beautiful; it filled me with energy." I wrote something like this and also wrote my name. The next students would then write related sentences about the sunrise. After a few days, I realized that this was not benefiting my creativity much. Why? Because I would start with a thought process in mind and simply write it down. So, I decided that instead of going first, I would go last. Later, I realized that writing last allowed me to read what others had written and then come up with something even better, improving my creativity. Such small teaching methods can have a lasting impact on students' lives. Due to my background in organizational work and human resource development, I strongly believe in engaging with students regularly. Over time, our discussions have also been compiled into a book, which has become a useful reference for millions of students.
Lex Fridman: Can you give students some more advice on how to succeed in their careers? How should they find their career path and achieve success? This advice is not just for students in Bharat but for people worldwide who find inspiration in your words.
Prime Minister: I believe that whatever work you get, if you do it with full dedication and commitment, sooner or later, you will gain expertise in it. Your abilities will open doors to success. A person should focus on continuously improving their skills while working and should never underestimate their learning ability. If someone values their ability to learn and tries to learn from everything, they grow immensely. Some people only focus on their work, while others observe and understand the work of those around them, which doubles or even triples their abilities. I would tell young people—there is no need to be discouraged. Somewhere in this world, there is a job that God has written for you. Don’t worry. Focus on improving your skills so that you become capable and deserving of opportunities. For example, someone might say, 'I wanted to become a doctor, but I couldn’t, so my life is ruined. Now, I am a teacher instead.' If you think like this, it won’t work. Okay, you didn’t become a doctor, but as a teacher, you can help hundreds of students fulfil their dreams of becoming doctors. As a single doctor, you would have treated patients, but as a teacher, you can shape future doctors who will treat millions. This gives life a new perspective. Instead of dwelling on what you couldn’t achieve, focus on how you can still contribute. I firmly believe that God has given everyone some unique strengths. Never lose faith in your abilities. Stay confident that whenever the opportunity arises, you will rise to the occasion, perform well, and achieve success. And when a person has this mindset, they always succeed.
Lex Fridman: How should students deal with stress, struggles, and the difficulties they face on their journey?
Prime Minister: First of all, they should understand that exams are not life itself. Families should also realize that their children are not meant to be displayed in society as models—saying, 'Look, my child scores this much, see how great my child is!' Parents should stop using their children as a model for their own social status. Secondly, I believe that students should always be well-prepared. Only then can they take exams without stress. They should have confidence and clarity about what they have learned. Sometimes, students panic as soon as they receive the exam paper. Their mind starts overthinking—'Oh no, my pen isn’t working properly!' or 'This person sitting next to me is distracting me!' or 'The bench is shaking!'—instead of focusing on the exam. This happens when someone lacks self-confidence. They keep looking for external reasons for their discomfort. But if a student has faith in themselves and has put in the hard work, they just need a couple of minutes to compose themselves. Take a deep breath, focus, read the questions carefully, and then mentally allocate time—'I have this much time, so I will answer each question in this many minutes.' I believe that students who practice writing their answers beforehand develop a habit that helps them complete their exams smoothly and without any problems.
Lex Fridman: You mentioned that one should always try to learn. How do you personally learn new things? What advice would you give on the best way to learn—not just in youth, but throughout life?
Prime Minister: As I mentioned earlier, in my early life, I had the opportunity to read a lot. But now, my life is such that I don’t get much time to read, yet I am a keen listener and observer. I stay fully present in the moment. Whenever I meet someone, I am completely there, fully attentive. This helps me grasp things very quickly. Right now, I am with you—I am fully with you. There is no mobile phone, no telephone, no messages distracting me. I am concentrating completely. This is a habit everyone should develop. The more you focus, the better your learning ability becomes. Secondly, learning is not just about gaining knowledge—it must be put into practice. You cannot become a good driver just by reading autobiographies of great drivers; you have to actually sit in the car, hold the steering wheel, and drive. You must take risks. If you keep thinking, 'What if I get into an accident? What if I die?'—then you will never learn anything. I believe that those who live in the present follow a key principle: The time that has passed is now your past. Live in the moment—don’t let this present moment turn into the past without experiencing it. Otherwise, you will keep chasing the future while letting your present slip away, turning it into just another part of your past. Most people make this mistake—they worry so much about the future that they waste their present, and in doing so, their present simply becomes a lost past.
Lex Fridman: Yes, I have heard many stories about your meetings with people, and how distractions usually come up. But right now, there are no distractions—just the two of us, fully engaged in this conversation. That itself is a beautiful thing. And today, you have given me your complete attention, which feels like a gift. Thank you! Now, I want to ask you a difficult yet deeply connected question. Do you ever think about your own death? Are you afraid of dying?
Prime Minister: Can I ask you a question?
Lex Fridman: Of course, go ahead.
Prime Minister: After birth, we have life and we have death. Out of these two, which one is the most certain?
Lex Fridman: Death!
Prime Minister: Death! Now, tell me—you gave me the correct answer. The moment someone is born, death is inevitable. Life, on the other hand, is something that grows and evolves. Between life and death, only death is certain. Now, if you already know that death is certain, then why fear it? Instead, invest your energy, time, and intellect in life, not in worrying about death. Let life flourish! Life is uncertain—that is why we must work hard for it, streamline it, and upgrade it stage by stage. That way, until death arrives, you can bloom like a flower in full spring. So, remove the thought of death from your mind. It is certain, it is already written, and it will come when it has to. When it has the time, it will come.
Lex Fridman: What are your hopes for the future? Not just for Bharat, but for all of humanity, for all of us living here on Earth?
Prime Minister: By nature, I am a very optimistic person. Despair and negativity—they are simply not part of my software; I do not have that chip. That is why my mind does not dwell in that direction. I believe that if we look at human history, humanity has overcome great crises and moved forward. As time demands, people have accepted significant changes and have continuously evolved. Additionally, in every era, humans have had a natural tendency to embrace new things. Another observation I have is that while there may be ups and downs in progress, humanity has the strength to abandon outdated concepts. That is its greatest ability—to free itself from burdens and move forward quickly. The power to let go of obsolete things is crucial, and I see that the society I am most connected with has the ability to do this. I strongly believe that it can leave behind the old and embrace the new.
Lex Fridman: I was just thinking—can you teach me a Hindu prayer or meditation, even for a few moments? I have tried to learn, and I have been practicing the Gayatri Mantra. During my fasting, I tried chanting mantras. Perhaps I can try chanting it now, and you can explain the meaning and significance of this mantra and other mantras, and how they have influenced your life and spirituality. May I try?
Prime Minister: Yes, go ahead!
Lex Fridman: Om Bhur Bhuvah Swaha, Tat Savitur Varenyam, Bhargo Devasya Dheemahi, Dhiyo Yo Nah Prachodayat. How did I do?
Prime Minister: You did quite well! Om Bhur Bhuvah Swaha, Tat Savitur Varenyam, Bhargo Devasya Dheemahi, Dhiyo Yo Nah Prachodayat. This mantra is actually connected to the worship of the Sun. In ancient times, the significance of the Sun was immense. In Hindu philosophy, every mantra has some connection with science. Whether it is science or nature, these mantras are always linked in some way. They also connect with different aspects of life. Chanting mantras in a regular rhythm has profound benefits. It brings discipline, mental focus, and a deep sense of harmony.
Lex Fridman: In your spirituality, in your moments of peace when you are with God, where does your mind go? How do mantras help in that process, especially when you are fasting or when you are alone with yourself?
Prime Minister: Look, when we talk about 'meditation,' to people, it has become a heavy word for them. In our language, we have a simpler word—'ध्यान' (Dhyana). Now, if I talk about meditation in terms of ‘Dhyana’, people feel that it is too burdensome—something they cannot do because they are not spiritual figures. So I explain it in a different way—get rid of your habit of being absent-minded. For example, if you are sitting in class but thinking about when the sports period will begin, it means your focus is not in the present. But if you bring your attention fully to the moment, that is meditation. I remember when I lived in the Himalayas, I met a saint who taught me a simple technique—not something spiritual, just a technique. In the Himalayas, small waterfalls flow continuously. He placed a dry leaf under a dripping stream of water and turned a vessel upside down underneath it, so the water would drip steadily. He told me, 'Don't do anything—just listen to this dripping sound. You should hear nothing else—not the birds, not the wind, nothing—just this sound.' At first, I found it difficult, but over time, my mind got trained. Slowly, it became meditation for me. There were no mantras, no thoughts of God—just the sound of water, Nada-Brahma (the divine sound). This practice taught me concentration, and it naturally became my meditation. Think about it—imagine you are in a luxurious five-star hotel, a beautifully decorated room, perfect in every way, but the bathroom tap is dripping. That tiny sound can ruin your experience, no matter how expensive the room is. This shows how small things can disrupt the mind, and how inner focus can transform our experiences. Our scriptures also talk about life and death in a holistic way. There is a mantra: 'Om Purnamadah Purnamidam Purnat Purnamudachyate'. It describes life as a complete cycle—wholeness leading to wholeness. Similarly, we talk about universal well-being: 'Sarve Bhavantu Sukhinah, Sarve Santu Niramaya'—May all be happy, may all be free from disease. 'Sarve Bhadrani Pashyantu, Ma Kashchid Dukhbhag Bhavet'—May everyone see good, may no one suffer. And finally, every mantra concludes with: 'Om Shanti, Shanti, Shanti'—Peace, peace, peace. These rituals and mantras in Bharat are not just traditions; they are the result of thousands of years of wisdom and the deep spiritual research of our sages. They are deeply connected to the elements of life and structured in a scientific way.
Lex Fridman: Shanti, Shanti, Shanti. Thank you for this honour, and thank you for this incredible conversation. Thank you for welcoming me to Bharat, and now I am looking forward to breaking my fast with Indian food tomorrow. Thank you very much, Prime Minister. It was a great honour for me.
Prime Minister: I really enjoyed the opportunity to speak with you. Since you have been fasting for two days, do not start eating all at once. Begin with some liquids for a day; that will give you a systematic benefit. Maybe today, I touched upon several topics for the first time because I usually keep these things very personal. But today, you succeeded in bringing some of them out. It is possible that...
Lex Fridman: Thank you.
Prime Minister: Your audience will enjoy it. I truly enjoyed it. My best wishes to you. Thank you!
Lex Fridman: Thank you! Thank you for listening to this conversation with Prime Minister Narendra Modi. Now, I want to answer some questions and express a few thoughts running through my mind. If you have anything to ask or want to reach out to me for any reason, visit [lexfridman.com/contact](https://lexfridman.com/contact). First of all, I want to congratulate the team associated with the Prime Minister. It was an excellent team! They were incredibly skilled, efficient, and great communicators. Overall, it was a fantastic team. And since I spoke in English while Prime Minister Modi ji spoke in Hindi, I must say something about the interpreter who was translating our conversation. She was absolutely excellent. No amount of praise would be enough. From the equipment to the quality of the translation, her entire work was simply outstanding. And anyway, while traveling around Delhi and Bharat, I noticed things that were quite different from the rest of the world. It felt as if I had stepped into another world altogether. Culturally, I had never experienced anything like that before. The way people interact with each other there—such incredible and fascinating individuals! Of course, Bharat is made up of a variety of cultures, and Delhi is just a glimpse of that. Just like New York, Texas, or Iowa alone don’t represent the entire United States, they are just different shades of America. On this trip, I travelled everywhere in a rickshaw. I just wandered through the streets, exploring. I talked to people about their lives. Of course, like anywhere else in the world, there were people here too who wanted to sell me something—people who, at first glance, saw me as a tourist, a foreign traveller who might have some money to spend. But, as always, I avoided such superficial interactions. Instead, I spoke to people directly from the heart—about what they love, what they fear, and the joys and hardships they have experienced in life. The best thing about people is that no matter where you are, they quickly see beyond the surface—the masks that strangers often wear around each other. If you are open and genuine enough to show them your true self, they will recognize it. And that’s exactly what I try to do. And I would like to say that, for the most part, everyone was incredibly kind and full of humanity. Even if they didn’t speak English, understanding them was always easy. Perhaps, compared to most people I’ve met so far, it was much easier in Bharat—people’s eyes, faces, and body language conveyed so much. Everything was clear, even emotions were openly visible. For example, when I travel in Eastern Europe, understanding someone can be more difficult in comparison. That meme you see—there's a little truth to it. Usually, people don’t let their true feelings come out so openly. But in Bharat, everyone comes forward with openness. So, after spending several weeks wandering through Delhi, meeting people, I had so many incredible experiences and interactions. Generally, when it comes to understanding people, I believe that eyes can often speak more than words. We humans are fascinating beings. Beneath the calm waves on the surface, there is often a deep, stormy ocean hidden inside. In a way, what I try to do in conversations—whether on camera or off—is to reach that depth.
Well, the few weeks I spent in Bharat were a magical experience. Even the traffic here was incredible in itself—like the ultimate challenge for self-driving cars. It reminded me of nature documentary videos—the ones with fish. Where thousands of fish swim together at incredibly high speeds, and it looks like they’re all scattered in different directions. And yet, when you look at it from a broader perspective, it seems as if they are all moving in perfect rhythm and harmony. I’m definitely planning to return soon with my friend Paul Rosolie, and maybe a few more friends. I’ll travel across Bharat, from north to south.
Now, I want to talk about a book that first drew me toward Bharat and its deep philosophical and spiritual ideas. That book is Siddhartha by Hermann Hesse. I had read most of Hesse’s famous books during my teenage years, but years later, I revisited them. I came across Siddhartha at a time when I was deeply immersed in a completely different kind of literature—writers like Dostoevsky, Camus, Kafka, Orwell, Hemingway, Kerouac, Steinbeck, and others. Many of these books reflect the same human dilemmas that I often struggled to understand in my youth, and even today, they continue to intrigue me in new ways. But it was Siddhartha that helped me understand how these dilemmas are viewed from an Eastern perspective. It was written by Hermann Hesse. And yes, please, let me say his name like this. I’ve heard some people pronounce it as ‘Hess,’ but I’ve always said ‘Hesse,’ always. So yes, Hermann Hesse, the Nobel Prize-winning writer from Germany and Switzerland, wrote this book during one of the most difficult times of his life. His marriage was falling apart, World War I had shattered his dreams of peace, and he was suffering from severe headaches, insomnia, and depression. That’s when he started psychoanalysis with Carl Jung, which led him toward understanding Eastern philosophy as a way to calm his troubled mind. Hesse read numerous translations of ancient Hindu scriptures, studied Buddhist texts, read the Upanishads, and even explored the Bhagavad Gita. Writing Siddhartha was, in itself, a journey for him—much like the journey of the book’s main character. Hesse began writing this book in 1919 and completed it in three years, during which he faced a major mental health crisis. The book tells the story of Siddhartha, a young man in ancient Bharat, who renounces wealth and comfort to seek the ultimate truth. On every page, you can feel his personal struggles—his restlessness, his disillusionment with worldly life, and his deep desire to discover the truth for himself. I want to emphasize again that this book was not just about philosophy for Hesse—it was his way of escaping his mental struggles. He was writing to emerge from suffering and move toward inner wisdom. I won’t go into too much detail about the book here, but I do want to highlight two key lessons I learned from it and still remember to this day. The first comes from a scene that, to me, is one of the most profound in the book. Siddhartha is sitting by the river, listening attentively, and in that river, he hears all the voices of life—all the sounds of time itself. The past, the present, and the future—all flowing together. From that scene, I realized and understood something: If we think like ordinary people, time seems to flow in a straight line. But in a deeper sense, time is an illusion. The truth is that everything exists simultaneously, all at once. In this way, our life is just a fleeting moment, and yet, it is also infinite. These ideas are hard to express in words—I feel they can only be truly understood through personal experience.
It reminds me of David Foster Wallace’s famous fish story. He’s another one of my favourite writers. He told this story in a commencement speech about 20 years ago. The story goes like this: Two young fish are swimming in the water when they come across an older fish swimming in the opposite direction. The older fish nods at them and says, ‘Good morning, kids. How’s the water?’ The young fish keep swimming and then turn to each other and ask, ‘What is water?’ Just as time deceives us by moving forward, in this story, water represents that deception. We humans are completely immersed in it. But gaining wisdom means stepping back a little, seeing reality from a deeper perspective, where everything is interconnected—completely. It transcends both time and the world itself. Another important lesson from this novel—one that had a profound impact on me when I was younger—is that one should never blindly follow anyone. Nor should one learn about the world solely through books. Instead, one must carve their own path and throw themselves into life. Because life’s real lessons can only be learned through direct experience. And every experience—whether good or bad—mistakes, sorrow, and even the time you think you've wasted, all of it is an essential part of your growth. On this note, Hesse distinguishes between knowledge and wisdom. Knowledge is something anyone can teach. But wisdom only comes when you face the chaos of life. In other words, the path to wisdom isn’t in rejecting the world, but in fully immersing yourself in it. That’s how I started seeing the world through the lens of Eastern philosophy. But many of Hesse’s books have influenced me. So, here’s my recommendation: Read Demian when you're young. Read Steppenwolf when you’re a little older. Read Siddhartha at any age—especially during difficult times. And if you want to experience Hesse’s greatest masterpiece, read The Glass Bead Game—a book that profoundly explores how the human mind and civilization itself can dedicate themselves to the pursuit of knowledge, understanding, and truth. But Siddhartha is the one book I have read more than twice. Whenever I face a difficult time in my own life, I remember that moment from the book when Siddhartha is asked what qualities he possesses. His answer is simple: "I can think, I can wait, and I can fast." Let’s break this down a little. The first part—"I can think." As Marcus Aurelius said, "The quality of your life depends on the quality of your thoughts." The second part—"I can wait." Patience and waiting are often the right way to deal with a problem. With time, comes depth and understanding. The third part—"I can fast." The ability to live with less, and still be content, is the first step to true freedom. In a world where the mind, the body, and society constantly try to bind you, this is liberation. Alright, friends! It’s a bit sad, but this episode comes to an end here. As always, thank you for listening, and thank you for supporting me all these years. I’ll leave you with these words from the Bhagavad Gita: "He who sees the unity of life sees his own soul in all beings, and all beings in his own soul, and he looks upon all with an impartial vision." Thanks for listening. See you next time.
